Incidentally, I don't mean to call you out in particular, but when you call grownup female programmers "girls," lots of very cool women will decide to hang out somewhere else -- sort of for the same reason black men in the US aren't going to love it if someone calls them "boys." Not trying to police your language, just something to think about.
> Incidentally, I don't mean to call you out in particular, but when you call grownup female programmers "girls," lots of very cool women will decide to hang out somewhere else -- sort of for the same reason black men in the US aren't going to love it if someone calls them "boys."
I agree with you that calling female programmers and coworkers as girls is demeaning, but it IS NOT the same as calling a black man a boy, which has a long history of racist oppression.
The easiest way to insult any male is to refer to him as a boy. For males it carries the sting of naiveté and inadequacy. Females on the other have a very positive attachment with youth and "girls" and clearly spend a lot of energy continuing to identify themselves that way.
I wasn't really getting at this. Calling a black man "boy" is extremely racist and doesn't have to do with gender identity. It has to due with systematic culture destruction and oppression as a result of slavery in the United States and conditions in which black folks were placed post slavery.
I totally get what you're saying, and I know any comparison of different groups with different troubles is tricky. They're not identical. But I'll stand behind the analogy.
Take a look at how 1950s professional men in Mad Men call their female coworkers "girls." You know what the legal context was? Women were literally a lower caste than men. Didn't have the same rights to divorce, didn't have the same rights to appear in court, didn't have the same rights to serve on juries, didn't have the same rights to take many respectable jobs, didn't have a right to equal pay for the jobs they could take, didn't have the right to stop their husbands from raping them, didn't have the same rights to inherit property. 50-year-old women were called "girls" by 30-year-old men because the law itself treated women like servants, wards, or objects rather than independent adults. And this was true throughout the United States when you, or your mother, or your grandmother was born.
So I do think it's similar to the kind of issues that black men have with "boy." But thanks for your thoughtful response, even if I disagree. I try not to rant about this stuff, and I hate that we have to cope with it all in order to have a simple conversation, but here we are. There's plenty of crappy history to go around.
Calling females "girls" or otherwise infantalizing them was used to deny them property, bodily autonomy, voting rights and independent personhood. The abolition and marriage property rights movements went hand in hand.
I'm not arguing that they are equivalent, but both are part of a long history of violent oppression.
There is a history current state of sexist oppression, just as with racism. I didn't mean to imply that there is a mutual exclusion: racism and sexism are active parts of our culture and society, both today and in the past.
I only want to point out that racism and sexism, while related, are distinct and different. Referring to women in professional circles as girls is a very different kind of thing compared to calling a black man "boy", and attempts to draw parallels between the two are problematic, as we get into the territory of identity and experience erasure.
Boy, not guy. If you used 'boy' for a black male, it would be pretty racist.
Know how today it's popular to call to someone by saying "Hey man", "Yo man", etc? That was a trend started by black men in response to racist white people calling them "boy" as a way to insult or demean. The stigma still exists throughout most of black culture because believe it or not, there's still parts of the south where full grown black men are called "boy" by ignorant/racist whites.
Using "girl" is not in the same ballpark, so I can see how this may have slipped your mind, but some full-grown women don't like being called a "girl". It's demeaning in a similar way, though I don't believe it was intended to oppress the entire female sex, so it's not nearly as bad.
If it's a professional setting, don't call people "girls" or "boys". It's just not respectful. If someone is over the age of 21, just use "woman" or "man", or whatever they prefer to be called. They will appreciate it.
Just because something should matter more doesn't mean it does. I agree that vocabulary alone should not matter, but this isn't how the world works. You can't use 'the N word' in public because people don't differentiate your intent from the vocab. Same goes for all terms for all kinds of people.
No matter what anyone calls themselves, it's important you treat all people with respect by default, regardless of how they act towards themselves or others. If your boss calls herself a 'girl', you should still call her a 'woman'.
Sometimes people will unwittingly foster an unwelcoming culture by making jokes about themselves. Sexual harassment is one example. By calling herself a 'girl', and by making derogatory comments about women, this boss could be setting the standard for all women in the office to be treated, which is very unfair. The same thing happens with race, religion, etc.
http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Mojang_AB#Current_employee...
Oh, so that's why.
Incidentally, I don't mean to call you out in particular, but when you call grownup female programmers "girls," lots of very cool women will decide to hang out somewhere else -- sort of for the same reason black men in the US aren't going to love it if someone calls them "boys." Not trying to police your language, just something to think about.